EviL-

[EviL-]

You have been playing this for so many years and it would be fair if we play RvR as almost everyone does. Despite that, I can beat your P cannon. But it is not the fact we are just top 4 (why smurf does not matter) and we play my I'm not interested in the prize but to be a fair winner despite missing many as cole dinko day hash sven hydra etc

[EviL-]

MARK i will only say: do you know how to play 1s 2s?
learn porfavor

[beaTz-]

MARK i will only say: do you know how to play 1s 2s?
learn porfavor

I’m washed up man, I’m terrible now lmao. But like I said early you have about 9 hours now so hop on and try to win it if you really wanted too.

[johnwick]

You have been playing this for so many years and it would be fair if we play RvR as almost everyone does. Despite that, I can beat your P cannon. But it is not the fact we are just top 4 (why smurf does not matter) and we play my I'm not interested in the prize but to be a fair winner despite missing many as cole dinko day hash sven hydra etc

No it wouldn't be fair to change the rules last minute on Matt just because you don't agree with him winning. If you had that much of a problem with him picking P, you could've brought up this topic anytime throughout the season. At least that would give him time to prepare for a RvR tournament finale

[EviL-]

well then that matt wins is fair and it's over

[TealSilverSteal]

Lmfao, Really Evil. I havent been on that much latley but already saw how you dodge Matt when he ask you to play. Oh Right, you prob went "afk" right?   - _ -

[SaDiStiC)SmurF]

2-0 I raped you ez noob.

[VvnJustin]

i think its stupid to complain about picking P in fpm. matt and a lot of people thinks its the best race in the map so why deny them what they deem the greatest chance of winning? what if a godlike Z picker or a T picker (like flash) comes along? do we ban them from picking Z or T?

[tO_cReAtiVee]

No its not stupid. It was previously shown in statistics how much of an advantage protoss has on Fastest. If anyone denies that protoss is overpowered on Fastest, then they probably never played Fastest. I mean Mike, I know you are good and I know you know that Protoss is OP on Fastest. I agree that picking shouldnt be forbidden in the ladder stage (since anyone can just not play the picker, if they dont want to), but then there has to be a RvR tournament. Sure you can overcome that deficit in games, but in the long run even Flash would lose more against Protoss than he is used to from low money maps. Storm and Reaver drops are just too good. Yea nowadays with Valkyries being used for anti-drop, it evened out a bit, but still this one deadly storm can always hit you, in a moment of negligence.

And why deny them the greatest chance of winning? Simply so this doesnt end up in a boring PvP fest. It's for the greater good and quite frankly most ppl play RvR on ladder, so why should most ppl have to take the disadvantage of being random and having to learn 9 matchups as opposed to the p picker only having 3 matchups to learn.

[TealSilverSteal]

Stop crying about ppl picking p, or make som rules. Max 3 cannons at entrance. 

[VvnJustin]

the only reason i'd say P is OP in 1s FPM is because of mind control, but now that it is banned i'd say the races are pretty much even, at the highest level.

i believe now with flash and koreans labbing T in FPM more seriously than ever before, it's only a matter of time before T becomes optimized and TvP balance shifts. eventually, and hopefully, a great Z will come along and do the same for ZvT/ZvP.

race imbalances are so negligible. the positional imbalances, in FPM is a much bigger issue

[tO_cReAtiVee]

I just leave this thread in here: https://www.starcraftworld.net/index.php?topic=176.0

Sure this was for a previous season (season 2 I think or so, not sure though), but I don't think the numbers changed drastically. At least not in the foreign scene. You cant compare the foreign scene with korean super gosus anyway. This is strictly divided in low money scene as well. Sure tendencies of the korean meta always transition also into the foreign scene, but still it is not comparable. Especially Flash is just an exceptional talent that would probably excel in anything that is related to Broodwar. And yes I already mentioned the "new" meta of Valkyries to defend drops. But valkyries arent cheap and defending storm and reaver drops until you have a decent sized valkyrie army is pretty hard anyway.

Statistically Protoss has a winrate of 66.9% in PvT and 64.2% in PvZ. So in average Protoss picker have 65.55% winrate in Protoss vs Non-Protoss. And thats obviously a huge boost for just picking one race.

Again I am not arguing that protoss picking should be forbidden in the ladder stage, but that there has to be RvR tournament afterwards. People can just decide to not play protoss pickers anyway...

[RJBTV]

the only reason i'd say P is OP in 1s FPM is because of mind control, but now that it is banned i'd say the races are pretty much even, at the highest level.

i believe now with flash and koreans labbing T in FPM more seriously than ever before, it's only a matter of time before T becomes optimized and TvP balance shifts. eventually, and hopefully, a great Z will come along and do the same for ZvT/ZvP.

race imbalances are so negligible. the positional imbalances, in FPM is a much bigger issue

You're wrong there. While yes, T centric players have been improving their ability to play TvP, the improvement won't be sufficient to bridge the gap. P players also keep improving. The statistics among top players tell a clear story. P in PvT has a huge winrate advantage(over 80% winrate for P). Saying the imbalance on FMP is negligable is ludicrous. However there are some factors we also have to keep in mind that affect the match up on the Korean map that are different from the western version.

• The amount of stacked Mineral patches being lower on SUPER map is advantageous for T because the race requires less miners compared to P or Z. Advantage for T
• Turrets can't see over the walls, making it easier to fly drops in. Shuttles can see over the walls without getting hit by turrets, making it easier for early drops to look for weaknesses in turret formations. Also makes it easier for P to just drop a bunch of units ON TOP of the turrets without any shuttle loss. Huge advantage for P
• P needs less gas income than Terran and can function off only a +1 nexus. Terran needs higher gas income to function on higher tech builds and requires more/up to 4CC to mine from all the gas. That's a downside for T and an advantage for P.
• Spots 12 and 6 have a hard time spotting a drop if the drop flies against the top or bottom edge of the map due to there being Gas Geysers all the way to the base walls that can obscure the clarity of the colors on the minimap. Advantage for P.
• Depending on earlier or later versions being played, the corner chokes are way bigger. This doesn't provide much of a downside for P but it does provide a downside for T. Players have to invest more into their chokes and enemies get a wider unit spread, so less bottlenecking. Advantage for P
• Both races can land on the walls(later versions). This offers a bigger advantage for terran because of siege tanks. Advantage for T but can also be a advantage for P in some niché situations.

There are a couple more interactions that are different but all in all, the versatility protoss has and the ability to build an entire base with just one probe offers protoss many advantages over other races.


And on EviL- not playing for the tournament last season, he chose work over gaming. Lets just be glad he didn't decide to cheat because of it.

[VvnJustin]

the only reason i'd say P is OP in 1s FPM is because of mind control, but now that it is banned i'd say the races are pretty much even, at the highest level.

i believe now with flash and koreans labbing T in FPM more seriously than ever before, it's only a matter of time before T becomes optimized and TvP balance shifts. eventually, and hopefully, a great Z will come along and do the same for ZvT/ZvP.

race imbalances are so negligible. the positional imbalances, in FPM is a much bigger issue

You're wrong there. While yes, T centric players have been improving their ability to play TvP, the improvement won't be sufficient to bridge the gap. P players also keep improving. The statistics among top players tell a clear story. P in PvT has a huge winrate advantage(over 80% winrate for P). Saying the imbalance on FMP is negligable is ludicrous. However there are some factors we also have to keep in mind that affect the match up on the Korean map that are different from the western version.

• The amount of stacked Mineral patches being lower on SUPER map is advantageous for T because the race requires less miners compared to P or Z. Advantage for T
• Turrets can't see over the walls, making it easier to fly drops in. Shuttles can see over the walls without getting hit by turrets, making it easier for early drops to look for weaknesses in turret formations. Also makes it easier for P to just drop a bunch of units ON TOP of the turrets without any shuttle loss. Huge advantage for P
• P needs less gas income than Terran and can function off only a +1 nexus. Terran needs higher gas income to function on higher tech builds and requires more/up to 4CC to mine from all the gas. That's a downside for T and an advantage for P.
• Spots 12 and 6 have a hard time spotting a drop if the drop flies against the top or bottom edge of the map due to there being Gas Geysers all the way to the base walls that can obscure the clarity of the colors on the minimap. Advantage for P.
• Depending on earlier or later versions being played, the corner chokes are way bigger. This doesn't provide much of a downside for P but it does provide a downside for T. Players have to invest more into their chokes and enemies get a wider unit spread, so less bottlenecking. Advantage for P
• Both races can land on the walls(later versions). This offers a bigger advantage for terran because of siege tanks. Advantage for T but can also be a advantage for P in some niché situations.

There are a couple more interactions that are different but all in all, the versatility protoss has and the ability to build an entire base with just one probe offers protoss many advantages over other races.


And on EviL- not playing for the tournament last season, he chose work over gaming. Lets just be glad he didn't decide to cheat because of it.

whatever, i'll drop the race balance thing for now... it just pisses me off completely when people complain about race matchup when instead they could be using that time and energy to figuring out what Z and T could be doing to even things out. i mean look at all the cancerous strats matt uses as P... there isn't any effort into finding the zerg or terran equivalents. i believe the strats are there somewhere in the game, they just aren't as obvious as protoss ones and probably require deeper digger, far past even the current "gosu korean" meta.

[RJBTV]

whatever, i'll drop the race balance thing for now... it just pisses me off completely when people complain about race matchup when instead they could be using that time and energy to figuring out what Z and T could be doing to even things out. i mean look at all the cancerous strats matt uses as P... there isn't any effort into finding the zerg or terran equivalents. i believe the strats are there somewhere in the game, they just aren't as obvious as protoss ones and probably require deeper digger, far past even the current "gosu korean" meta.

There are some strategies that counter some specific P builds, but most of them require a level of multitasking, micro skill and raw apm to execute well. Most westerners simply don't have the required level in those three to pull them off and are instead relegated to less punishing strategies and more passive builds. Plus aggressive T and Z strategies carry an amount of risk that aggressive P strategies don't.

Jaedong showed some really strong ZvP builds in his series vs 458!!. Heavily reliant on multitasking, very high apm and near perfect muta micro. Something that not even the best western low money zergs might be able to pull off.
Brain has some neat builds relying on hydralisk micro into lurkers/hydra mix but carries too much risk if apm isn't high enough.

There are more interesting builds and strategies but I doubt they'd find solid footing here in the west because of the skills required.