Proposal: Actually balancing the SCW maps

[TealSilverSteal]

DonFreecss, you talk about it like its our livestyle as if anyone is getting paid for it. Forget it... Most people play it for fun.

[DonFreecss]

If you find monotonous rvr games to be fun then by all means reject the idea. Being put into an environment you aren't familiar with but exploring it and utilizing it to its fullest sounds like fun as well. I don't want a replacement because that's impossible and unreasonable, but I'd like anyone who's interested in pushing fastest into a further evolved state to know that there are people like me working towards actualizing it. 

[heavymachinegun]

Yeah, this is about how I expected this discussion to go.

1.) Mention fastest is different than low money and should inherently never adopt or attempt to adopt new features, check!

2.) Mention that the status quo has existed for over a decade and therefore shouldn't and can't be altered, check!

3.) And Fainer, as much as I respect you for not closing this forum and maintaining a level-headed tone, these maps you offer barely differ from one another and they pander to an audience of conservative players (except the 4 player version, which I respect due to the removal of the poor bases and winning feels much more earned).

4.) Lastly, I understand starting my own league would be ideal, but I'm not nearly as popular or respected in order to garner a sufficient amount of contestants. This is why I was appealing to the community as a whole in hopes that change was something the community finally wanted or were willing to try. I suppose I'll try to introduce my ideas to the BGH or low-money community to see if any interest is renewed.

5.) P.S. By.Brain aka the best korean fastest player (at one point, at least) made a deep run into ASL 9 I believe and got 8th place. His playstyle was riveting to watch and even Tastosis were shocked at his psuedo-Mini protoss macro and harrass. Brain is a man of versatility and achievement and we should consider emulating his methods of success. Rather than fearing adversity and avoiding it, we should face it, deem it worthy or unworthy, and each player should self-evaluate their goals in Brood War; is it more of a hobby or a form of competition.

When Flash was first developing the 1-1-1 in TvZ he had a sub 20% winrate and was mocked--a month later he was maintaining an 80%+ winrate with this same build and people were now imitating him. Brood War is a tapestry and we should treat it as such.

allow me to explain: 99% of vgt fastest map players think they are gods of starcraft, enough said

fainer maps are all the same because this is a league of THAT map

[DonFreecss]

Yeah I'm fighting an uphill battle trying to uproot several years of tradition and dedication. I believe my far less controversial newer post will pique your interest (I hope). Check it out <3.

[CohleRust]

I don't mind the current map shape too much, but I like the idea of 5 upgrades max. That would help with those 1 hour + games where protoss cannons the entire map.
It would be cool to make fastest an ums and introduce some kind of balance changes To start off protoss needs to be weaker considering it has around 70% win rate or so. A small tweak like increasing storm energy cost to 125/150 would help.

[DonFreecss]

If I were to make it through UMS I was thinking about a watchtower in the middle of the map, so if an ally or an individual has control over mid and takes initiative, he's granted pretty good vision.

I think a good step to making Protoss balanced is making most of the center of the map unbuildable terrain--they'd still be able to turtle their own choke but 4-gating in the center of the map and winning every game by slamming that Z button is lame.

[BLuE[KaOz]]

no offense man but we dont need to make the map more fair. Get rid of middle spots and that's it. Late game Protoss is weaker then Terran and Zerg, if the Terran and Zerg are decent.. So Protoss should have the ability to build in the middle.. Terran and Zerg can build in the middle as well and Zerg has the strongest rush.. if a Zerg 6 pooled or lower the Zerg could easily stop a protoss mid build.. So if you know a player will always mid build then learn how to stop it.. Also if youre Z in a corner then you can stop a mid build a standard 9 hatch 9 pool and good micro. pulling the right amount of drones and microing well is key. Get better at the game adapt..

[heavymachinegun]

ums fastest is not recommended because it can be modified so players will cheat just like money 999

[DonFreecss]

no offense man but we dont need to make the map more fair. Get rid of middle spots and that's it. Late game Protoss is weaker then Terran and Zerg, if the Terran and Zerg are decent.. So Protoss should have the ability to build in the middle.. Terran and Zerg can build in the middle as well and Zerg has the strongest rush.. if a Zerg 6 pooled or lower the Zerg could easily stop a protoss mid build.. So if you know a player will always mid build then learn how to stop it.. Also if youre Z in a corner then you can stop a mid build a standard 9 hatch 9 pool and good micro. pulling the right amount of drones and microing well is key. Get better at the game adapt..

The sheer amount of caveats within your last sentence is just evidence that a 4 player map, assuming we maintain random v. random, is the most fair and reasonable. Who's going to 6 pool when they get zerg when there's a 33.3% chance they're facing protoss plus the additional odds of him going 4 gate mid. You're literally rolling dice at that point (unless, of course, one player is exceedingly better).

[LivE.SworD]

I think the general negativity that comes from the community when people make threads like this is due to the perceived pretentiousness of making it appear, whether intentionally or unintentionally, as though the sole reason people have stuck with the same map is because no mapmaker has come along and "fixed" the map. This is not referring to you specifically by any means, but to the general series of instances of something like this coming up. The reality though, is that there have been dozens of iterations of fastest map throughout the years spread throughout public games, other websites, and so on. Think of all the color variations (e.g. "fastest green", "fastest snow") that at one time floated around in the public game list. So there is no shortage of maps, or mapmakers that could adjust the maps if there was such a need. Yet fastest players now prefer this particular map, whether it be for a league game or a non-league game. To find evidence of this, just look at the fact that despite the map pool broadening just a bit with FaINeR's versions of the map, the original map is selected for the vast majority of games.

The reality is that FMP is not the same as low money, and it does not follow the same principles when it comes to map diversity. Whether playing casually or more competitively, a lot of people have developed some of their skills in reaction to this particular map, and that's perfectly fine. In response to the claim that people should be diversifying or "broadening" their skill set, you wouldn't use that argument, for example, to try to justify a claim that the table tennis ball size or table dimensions should be altered in order to broaden the skill requirements, or to help nullify service advantage, etc. At the end of the day, this is a game, we enjoy it, and there's no shortage of new things to learn about it, even with only one map.

[DonFreecss]

I'm well aware that  I'm a smug asshole and that my efforts would be met with the majority of people claiming it isn't neccesary, possible, and like you've mentioned, people before me have tried to do the same as me. And you've also mentioned the snow and grassy version fell flat compared to space which, in hindsight, seems obvious why (the space terrain offers much better visuals than any of its contemporaries). Yet those maps are the same exact format with a different skin--that's mainly my larger point I guess. I have a few distinct variations of FMP which would offer the substantial income everyone is accustomed to but would force them out of their comfort zones at the same time.

My intentions were simply to shake up the meta. balance random vs. random on a 8 player map, and we would all be stepping into the unknown together, which can help draw attention from other communities and even revitalize those few who simply play due to nostalgia and a close-knit discourse group. I was trapped in the League community for 3-4 extra years because of this strange and unhappy addiction that I'm sure others experience,

Again, my ideas aren't meant to deceptive, they weren't meant to uproot our community, and I certainly expected to be berated and flamed far more than I have. I'm actually surprised at the amount of people who contacted me in favor of my ideas or at least how I spoke of them. Even Resound looked at the 2v2 map I started for scw and he recommended I contact you because that was your expertise and he was genuinely "I think" interested in my approach in regards to the terrain and converging pathways.

Let me know if you're interested in downloading it and I'lll either host it or post it. Cheers

[heavymachinegun]

please bear in mind that league players only know to play vgt map and their brains cant handle any other map

also, players like scan, sky or other ranked players are here because of the money...

[Newbport]

Lmao.

The negativity of this community comes from the entitled nerds that have been playing this shit for the last 15 years. Any glimpse of change to their 'little world' causes them to have nervous breakdowns lmfao.

Oh and the fact that 90% of the community loves Kokanee dick in their ass.

[sNipEr.ScopE]

Lmao.

The negativity of this community comes from the entitled nerds that have been playing this shit for the last 15 years. Any glimpse of change to their 'little world' causes them to have nervous breakdowns lmfao.

Oh and the fact that 90% of the community loves Kokanee dick in their ass.

I play any map 3.0 2.0 it makes little difference to me but everybody cries so hard and calls them shit maps because they get pwnt when they play them even though they complain about the old map just as hard. Live.sword has never been against introducing new maps to the pool so if anyone has a map have it tested and I'm sure our community will accept the change. Not every single person of course but these types of maps have been and always will be an option. By the way Newport can you please keep your bm out of this?

[sNipEr.ScopE]

I am highly in favor of adding 4 player map for the noobs who cant play mid base and have no skill whatsoever